After 100 employees pack a room at Vancouver International Airport for a workplace menopause education event, Shirley Weir and co-host Jen tackle listener questions on irregular periods, joint pain, progesterone after hysterectomy, estrogen patch shortages, and the overlooked link between iron deficiency and anxiety — with a recurring theme: you are the center of your own healthcare circle, so get curious, advocate for yourself, and don't let anyone silo your care.
Menopause Chicks Podcast — Episode 2 Show Notes
Shirley shares her experience speaking at a workplace menopause education event at Vancouver International Airport (YVR), where 100 people showed up 20 minutes early — and the gut punch of hearing a colleague say "I don't want anyone to have to go through what I went through."
This Week's Open: Welcome to the new Menopause Chicks Podcast format — formerly the "Ask Anything" Monday sessions, now recorded live and released weekly. Guest co-host Jen joins again.
Sponsor Message: Menopause Chicks Vulva & Vaginal Moisturizer — goodbye dry, hello feel amazing. Visit MoisturizeYourVagina.com
Q&A Topics:
Key Resources Mentioned:
Disclaimer: The Menopause Chicks Podcast is for education and information only, not a substitute for personalized medical advice.
COLD OPEN I love to see 100 people in a room show up 20 minutes early for a menopause education event. I think that's very telling for where we are. But then I also feel that gut punch when I hear someone say, "Oh, I don't want anyone to have to go through what I went through," which really sounds like she may have suffered or had a challenging time navigating her healthcare. 📍 📍 This Week's Open welcome WELCOME everyone to the Menopause Chicks Podcast. My name is Shirley Weir. I'm the founder of Menopause Chicks, and this is a new reincarnation of an event that we've been hosting, uh, in the Menopause Chicks community for a few years now. It was called Ask Anything. And so many of you asked me to start recording it so that you could listen to it on your walk or your drive or whenever you like to listen to your favorite podcast. So we are happy this season to be hosting the Menopause Chicks Podcast where the agenda is designed by you and your questions and for you, and to make sure that you can get evidence-based answers so that you can make the best health decisions for you. I am joined today by some special people already. Jen, who you may have heard on last week's podcast, is a member of the Menopause Chicks community and our guest co-host today. She's gonna be helping me with some of the questions that you've already pre-submitted. And and Jen also recently went through the Speak Menopause for Allies and Advocates program because she is keen to answer questions and give mini TED Talks, as we like to joke, about all things menopause to her friends and her work colleagues, and even people in the waiting room at her dentist office. Hey, Jen. How's it going today? It's going well, thank you. Happy to be here- Good ... again this week Thanks. Thanks for taking time to do this. It means a lot. And Marion, welcome to the Menopause Chicks Podcast. It's good to have you here. We're going to get to your question in just a couple of minutes. I wanted to start off this episode by sharing what's been happening this week. So I just got back from speaking at a workplace education event on menopause, and it was at the Vancouver International 📍 Airport, so at YVR. What a special occasion, Jen. I don't know if you h- I know you talk about it informally at your place of work. This was a formal presentation, and it was led by one of our colleagues who did the Allies and Advocates session with summer school with us this year, and her name is Eileen, and she's just so passionate about the topic of menopause education, and I guess specifically about ensuring that no one in her team or her workplace has to go through what she did And that's how she introduced it today. And so that kind of comes, for me, that kind of comes with some excitement, right? I love to see 100 people in a room show up 20 minutes early for a menopause education event. I think that's very telling for where we are. But then I also feel that gut punch when I hear someone say, "Oh, I don't want anyone to have to go through what I went through," which really sounds like she may have suffered or had a challenging time navigating her healthcare. How does that make you feel when I t- when I share that story? I'm happy to hear that Eileen brought the conversation to her workplace. This is amazing, and it's great to hear that people were eager to actually participate, that they went early. So that's amazing, and it's al- She bought them lunch. Oh, nice. Okay. And it's always great to have menopause out in the open at the workplace, because there could be women suffering silently, and also there could be others her colleagues, that don't even know what she's going through, and she's just trying to get through the day. So it's nice that there's the conversation, it's open, and people can ask questions. And were there men there as well, or was it just women that showed up? Yeah. One of the things- Okay ... I love to say about menopause education in the workplace is that the workplace provides this excellent classroom for all ages, all genders, and all levels of the organization, right? So there's directors there, there's junior employees, there's different age groups, there was men, It's just, it's so rewarding. That sounds amazing. I think it should be in every organization. Like a workshop- Yeah ... on it. It's just it's good to know. Because even for the men, they've got women in their lives that could be going through this or will soon be going through it, so it's great just to have the information. Because knowledge is power. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna jump. I know you've got some questions that were submitted ahead of time, but I wanna share one of the questions that came up at this event today, and it was around menopause in the workplace education. And so this individual asked why do I think that workplaces might be resisting menopause education? And you're smiling, so why don't you go first. Tell me what you think. That's a very good question. It'd be good to know, like, why isn't it brought up, but I would think that probably it's something that's hush-hush kinda thing. Nobody wants to bring it up. Nobody knows how to bring it up or anything like that. So I think it might just be, like, something that's not openly talked about, and maybe that's why. Or nobody within the organization brings it up. Yeah. I would suggest Do you think we're still We're still stuck in that culture of, "I don't want anyone to know," anyone- Oh, definitely that I'm working with, I don't want them to know that I'm suffering or that I might not be at the top of my game right now? Definitely, 'cause I'm sure women are worried about either losing their s- positions- ... or not getting promotions and all that, because it's you know- The idea that they're not able to do their work. Yeah. So I think that's the fear, fear as well. I hear you on that. The first two things that popped into my mind were I'm not sure that workplaces are resisting the education. I think that menopause in the workplace, the conversation, the education, and the implementation of creating a culture that is, flexible and adapt- and supportive and compassionate, I think it's in its infancy. I think it's really so new that we've barely gotten started. And then I think that if there is an employer or, a team member who's resisting this conversation, that it might be because the word menopause has so much energy baked into it, right? So there's so much misinterpretation and misunderstanding that if I was... let's say I was to knock on their door and say, "Hi, I'm here to, bring you the menopause education session today." And they might be like, "Oh, we don't want people talking about that around the water cooler," or, "We're not sure we're ready for people to come into all our managers' office and talk about how, they're bleeding through a super plus tampon in one hour." And, I hear anecdotes like that, and that's not what we do in a menopause education place. We just teach the roles and responsibilities of hormones when cycles are regular. We help individuals discern between what is hormone-related and what is hormone-adjacent, 'cause that's really important for all of us to be able to pull apart. Not everything belongs in the menopause bucket even though there could be things happening at the same time and overlapping. And it is a word that has so much energy that is attached to it that it gets wildly misunderstood. And then probably finally, and we could, talk about this all show, but we got some other questions to get to. It's how do we make it a priority? How do you make something a priority that has never even ever been on the agenda? This is groundbreaking. I think what you did in the summertime, Jen, by participating in the Allies and Advocates program, the fact that the people that sit next to you in the office are very aware of how passionate you are about this topic, that's groundbreaking. I think YVR is groundbreaking in terms of having 100 people show up today at their workplace event. I think the session I did online last Wednesday that was a group of employers that got together had 350 people who stayed to the end and asked really great questions. So it's groundbreaking, but it's still relatively new Gosh, in some circles- I can believe it in some circles, women's health is still relatively new. We are, we're continuing to plow a new row here. Welcome Sandra. I'm glad you're here. Sponsor Message This episode of the Menopause Chicks podcast is brought to you by the vulva and vaginal moisturizer by Menopause Chicks. Goodbye dry, hello feel amazing. This product exists because women like you spoke up. That's right. When I first asked members of the Menopause Chicks community what they needed, the answer was overwhelmingly another solution for vulva and vaginal dryness. So we listened. We worked with women's health professionals, followed the evidence, and created a Health Canada approved moisturizer with hyaluronic acid and vitamin E for both the vulva and the vagina. And I'm not only the co-founder, I'm a customer too. I have been moisturizing my vulva and vagina since 2018. It's one part of how I prioritize my genital urinary health, along with vaginal estrogen and pelvic floor physiotherapy. This is a product created by women for women, and it's been shaped by a community of 60,000 members. Because you deserve to sit, move, dance, exercise, wear your favorite jeans, and enjoy sexual activity comfortably. Goodbye dry, hello feel amazing. Find the vulva and vaginal moisturizer by Menopause Chicks at moisturizeyourvagina.com. Q&A okay, Jen. Let's have a look at the questions that were submitted ahead of time! "Is it possible to go two years without a period and then get it again and just not be in menopause yet? I'm 53. This is what my doctor told me." What do you think? Great question, and of course it is possible. She is at the age of menopause, but as you always say, Shirley menopause is like women are reaching menopause later and later. So it is possible that she could not be in menopause yet, and it her period appeared. But I think also if it's been two years and it's appearing she should also get that looked into because it could be something else going on. That's a great answer, Jen. So here's where my mind goes when I see a question like this. And you have to understand, for those of you listening when we get questions in the Menopause Chicks community, it's usually without a lot of the other context outside. So I do know in this case that this person is 53, and the average age they, I'm using air quotes, they say for menopause in North America is 51. But as Jen has just reminded us, I see anecdotally the age of menopause getting much higher in the Menopause Chicks community. A lot of people I meet are north of 55 and and haven't reached menopause yet. So that might be evidence of evolution in action. But here's the thing. Where I go when I see a question like this is, why didn't you get a period for two years? Was it just no period, or did you have an ablation, which is a scraping of the uterus because you might have had heavy bleeding? Are you using contraception? Sometimes contraception can eliminate a period, or maybe it's a type of contraception that eliminated the period because you're also at this age. So for example, an IUD inserted in a younger person might bring a period every month, but maybe an IUD in someone in her 50s, she might not have gotten her period for two years. So bit of missing information there. But if everything has been investigated with your doctor as to why you didn't have a period and that the bleeding is a natural shedding of the uterine lining, and it's not bleeding from something else, then absolutely, it is possible that you could go two years without a period and then get it again, and for it to be a natural period and that you haven't reached menopause yet Does that make sense? Totally. Did I miss anything? I don't think so. Okay. Wanna go to the next one? Yes. I think we've got three here, right? Okay. So this one is 85 days without a period, and today a tiny hint of spotting on paper only. Does that count as a period, and have to start counting over again? Yes. So this is another example of a little bit of missing information. We don't know how old this person is. 85 days without a period is, generally speaking, not that long. While menopause, the definition of menopause is when we stop ovulating. The only way we can tell that we have actually stopped ovulating is to go 12 consecutive period-free months. Where my brain goes whenever I get this question, and it does come up a lot in the Menopause Chix community, the question of, "Do I have to start counting over again?" I think it helps for us to get into the mind of the person that is posing this question. And I always think, why do you wanna know? Because really, menopause is a question about reproduction. And if you are making decisions about contraception, then absolutely you need to start counting over again, because you might still be ovulating, or you might get... you might be experiencing irregular bleeding as your progesterone declines, as you get closer to menopause, but not be there yet. And I feel that when women ask me, "Do I have to start counting over again? Am I there yet?" They might not be asking it from a contraception point of view, but they might be asking, and this is totally legitimate, they might be asking it from the perspective of, "Can't I just be done with bleeding? Can't it just be over?" And I honor and recognize that, but it's a great opportunity for us to remind everyone who's listening that contraception is one of the real decisions that have to be made around menopause. And The International Menopause Society reminds us that if you reach menopause and you are over the age of 50, they recommend that you continue to use contraception for one additional year. And if you reach menopause and you are under the age of 50, that you continue to use contraception for two more years. And the reason is that those doctors at The International Menopause Society do not want their 50-year-old patients to get pregnant, and most 50-year-olds I know do not want to get pregnant either Perfect. Okay, this is our third question. Okay. I'm 45, perimenopause, experiencing debilitating joint pain and my doctor doesn't know what to do with me. Any insights? Okay. What about you, Jen? What do you think? The joint pain could be something completely Like, you know, aside from perimenopause or menopause symptoms, so you would have to be looking into what that issue is. And the joint pain, it could be coming from anything. Like, where you work. Are you sitting all day? Depends where your joint pain is, or if it's all over. But it's more of an investigation on why that's happening, and other factors that are going on in your life, and not put it in that perimenopause or menopause bucket. Yet, until you investigate, right? Yeah, absolutely. And joint pain can be related to declining estrogen. So we know that this individual is 45 and in perimenopause simply by her age. And whether or not she's experiencing other, any other signs of fluctuating estrogen or declining progesterone, she is presenting with joint pain. That's about all we know. And so it's absolutely possible that it could be related to fluctuating estrogen. And that's the thing about perimenopause, is that it can be so nuanced and so unpredictable. But if I was sitting across the table from this person, I would say when you reach menopause, estrogen will go for a steep decline. And that can come with, obviously risks to your bone density, so you want to be prepared to have a conversation about how you're going to prioritize your bone health. But it can also come with more joint pain. And a lot of women do experience changes to their shoulders, their knees, their hips noticing that joint health more than they ever did before." And then of course, as you said, is it related to something... Is there something else present? Is it, an exercise hangover or side effect, or is it arthritis or something that you can investigate with your health team? Something that we haven't talked about, and a lot of a lot of women in the Menopausetrix community will bring this up, and that is magnesium deficiency. So magnesium is a nutrient that our body does need. It usually does benefit our mood and our joints. And it's hard to get magnesium from diet alone, but it's really easy to supplement to see if that makes a difference to your joint health. So my first recommendation was, would be that this individual investigate to make sure that there isn't another health condition present, and and work with your health team. Even though you said your doctor doesn't know what to do with you I could help you with some script tips on how to get curious on that. And then you could of course get curious with about the benefits of magnesium on your own. And thirdly, great window of opportunity right now to start getting curious or investigate what and how you want to support your hormone health as you navigate the next few years transitioning to menopause and then the next three to five decades after that. Sound good? Perfect. Sounds amazing. Okay, I'm gonna shut this down, Jen, because I wanna get to some questions from our guests who have joined us live. And if you've just popped in the last few minutes welcome to the Menopause Chicks podcast. We are live. You are welcome to have your camera on, your camera off, your microphone on, your microphone off. If you also wanna pop a question into the chat you can do that as well. And I am going to start with Marian. Hi, Marian. Thank you. You're welcome. Hi. Thank you so much. Yes, so I've noticed that a lot of my friends who are in perimenopause or menopause are having increased anxiety around driving, including myself. Wow. So I was looking into some strategies, and my HRT cocktail does not include progesterone. Oh. And I've seen that as a suggestion for helping manage anxiety, and I definitely don't wanna go on anti-anxiety medication. I'd like to look at other options. So I was wondering what you think about this. Yeah. First of all, let's talk about progesterone when our cycles are regular. So when our cycles are regular, progesterone is that calming hormone. It's produced in the second half of our cycle, and it's, has many, has hundreds of roles and responsibilities, but the sort of the dominant roles or the stars of the show, if you will, are how progesterone supports our mood, supports our sleep, regulates our bleeding, and protects the lining of the uterus. And so that supporting of mood that progesterone plays it can show up as feelings of anxiousness and feelings of depressiveness. And I'm being kinda deliberate with those words right now because I don't want anyone to walk away from listening to this podcast and think that perimenopause equals anxiety and depression. Those are clinical diagnosis, but we can all feel, as our moods change, those feelings of anxiety or those feelings of depressed feelings. So yes. And then the next place that I would go would be back to you and say, is the reason that you don't that you're not taking progesterone because you don't have a uterus? Yes, I had a hysterectomy two years ago Okay. So it's really common for practitioners to advise women that if they do not have a uterus anymore, that they don't need progesterone. And again, I'm holding up my fingers in air quotes. The reality or the interpretation of that is that if you don't have a uterus, you do not need progesterone for uterine protection. But that doesn't mean that you can't benefit from progesterone to support your mood and your sleep. So the short answer to your question, Marion, is yes, you could benefit from progesterone. And with or without a uterus, you can get curious with your healthcare provider about what the potential benefits would be if you were to add progesterone into your protocol, and you can test that by just doing it and saying, "Will you work with me? I wanna conduct a test. I want to try progesterone for these reasons. Will you prescribe me for, let's say, 90 days?" I'm just making that up. "I'll keep really good notes about how I... i'll track my feelings of anxiety or feelings around resisting driving or being in the car when someone else is driving," which was my experience. I was okay behind the wheel, but I didn't love being a passenger any longer. "And I'll keep really good notes, and then you can use my case study as an example, and maybe that will help me, but it might help all the other women in your patient panel as well." Okay. Thank you. Does that answer your question? And there's no... Yes. But what's their hesitancy? Is there, there's not enough research done about the benefits, or there's certain risks that they're concerned about? Like, why would they not offer that? The re- the reason is because they were taught that they do not need to prescribe a progestin or a progesterone for uterine protection. Which is true, except if you turn that logic on its side, then what they are actually saying is that progesterone's only role, its, our only role was to protect the lining of the uterus. And we know that's not true, because we know progesterone actually has hundreds of roles and responsibilities. It, that, progesterone supports our brain health, it supports our bone health. Dr. Jerilynn Prior, who is the queen guru of progesterone and perimenopause research here at UBC she has taught me all the roles and responsibilities of progesterone, except we still have to play catch-up, or our prescribers need to play catch-up in terms of understanding how that might benefit someone's health Okay. Thank you so much. That was very- You're welcome ... informative. It's act- actually Dr. Jerilynn Prior who taught me the script tip about working with our healthcare provider on an experiment. And I think that is very valuable language for all our listeners to consider, because I see so much energy and effort coming out of members of the Menopause Chicks community who are like, "I don't know if I should. I don't know if I can. I don't know if my doctor will prescribe it." And all of that is valid. There's so many valid reasons for feeling that way. But if you can do a bit of a left turn and say, "You know what? I just, I have done my own research. I feel confident in exploring this. The only way for me to know if it's going to support my health would be if I try it for 30 or 60 or 90 days. And the worst-case scenario is that it doesn't make me feel any better, and then I have to find something else, or my doctor and I decide that we'll discontinue the treatment." But s- I meet women who have been debating their, this decision or contemplating even having a conversation about it for years So you have a permission slip to say, "You know what? I would just like to go and pursue this for me. Get curious for me." Yeah. Perfect Okay. Welcome Cindy and Margaret and Melissa. If you have any questions, do pop them into the chat. Jen will let me know when there's something there, I'm sure. And or you can just turn on your microphone Hi, Shirley. I just have one- Hi, Margaret ... couple. How are you? I'm good, thanks. Good. Nice to hear your voice. To say something to Marian, Oh, okay ... I opened that conversation about the progesterone with my endocrinologist, and the Prometrium 100 milligrams e- every night. I also had a hysterectomy many years ago. And she was very open to the suggestion, 'cause I do not sleep I, 3:00 on every d- every night. She recommended. I asked her about it, and she had no problem whatsoever- Good ... prescribing it to me. My problem right now unfortunately, and I did put something in the chat- Okay ... with the Canada-wide shortage of patches. So first of all, I do want to acknowledge the fact that it is very frustrating if you have been prescribed estrogen via a patch and you are experiencing the adverse side effects of a manufacturer shortage. And it's been going on for far too long. And I also just feel that our whole community, our whole health community has not done a really good job at explaining options to women. Not you necessarily, Margaret. I just wanted to say that to everyone who is listening. In terms of your equivalent dosing, so you have a dose that was working for you on a patch, what is the equivalent dose in a gel? I am not a prescriber, so I tend not to talk about exact doses. However, the Canadian Menopause Society does have an equivalency chart for anyone who's listening who is trying to make those calculations or wanting to know for themselves so they can check with their pharmacist or their doctor. The chart is at canadianmenopausesociety.org. Okay. Cindy has a post here in the chat and says, "I've recently switched from oral progesterone to topical because I suspect I am one of those who is sensitive to it, and I have been feeling fatigued and depressed. How long might it take for me to see if it makes a difference? I am on one pump every day. Also, with respect to estrogen patch dose, some experts say for bone brain health benefit, the minimum required is 100 McGs, and that's the minimum does before the dreaded WHI study." I'm sorry, I don't know what that means. I know what you're referring to, but I don't know what you mean by minimum before dreaded. Many practitioners are still on the minimum amount script. So a few things happening here. I don't know, Cindy, if you wanna turn your microphone on or not. That's totally your choice. I understand that some people are sensitive to oral micronized progesterone and and that is one of the situations where us, along with our healthcare team, can look at what other options might be available. So a compounded progesterone might be something that you look at. Compounded progesterone is not Health Canada or FDA approved but it is an option that where somebody that needs a customized dose or a customized molecular structure, if they're sensitive to something in the oral progesterone, then it's available to them. So that's why that exists. I'm not quite sure what you mean or how you're interpreting- Sorry, that, that was supposed to be- Yeah, go ahead ... not the minimum does, the minimum dose. Okay. Okay. Sorry. That's okay. Before the dreaded Women's Health Initiative study. Yeah. So the Women's Health Initiative study didn't even study progesterone. My first question was about the fact that I've recently switched to the compounded, Okay progesterone. And- And how long it might take? Exactly. And then the second was my continued confusion about the estrogen patch, that I should be- Okay ... on. I'm currently on .5, and I'm, I keep reading, hearing that really in order to have those benefits for bone and brain health, I probably need more estrogen. And yet, many people say no, there is no minimum. It's just, you should just be on the absolute minimum amount" possible for the shortest time possible, all that stuff. Right? Oh, yeah, no, I s- I still hear that. , My practitioner would be willing to take me up to .75, but given that I've just gone on the compounded topical progesterone, I don't wanna change two things at once, got it. I thought I'd see first if this compounded makes a difference to my extreme fatigue and blueness. Yes ... and then maybe see if I wanna ramp up the estrogen. But I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? Okay. Thank you so much. I think I've got it now. Okay. So how long might it take your compounded progesterone to, for you to know whether or not you're getting the benefit that it's intended for? And the answer is, don't know. No. There's no way to know- Yep ... because compounded progesterone has never been studied. It's not regulated, and- Yeah ... it's going to be different for everyone. Okay. Barring, if I was to peel back the layers of your story and your question, I, and maybe you've already done this, but I have to say it anyway. I would want to know dig deeper into what could be the root causes of feeling fatigued and depressed. And so fatigue, any time Shirley Weir hears that, thinks I wonder how her ferritin levels are. Is there any chance there's iron deficiency or a thyroid condition present?" I have been tested for that. Okay. I'm okay. Yep. Do you know what your ferritin level is? Not off the top of my head, but it- Because if a lot of women are, like, we're, s- we're calling ourselves thriving, and we might have less than optimal ferritin. So any time ferritin is less than 60, some practitioners would, might have different numbers than that, it really is an opportunity for us to top up our iron, either through diet or supplementation or, for some people an iron infusion. So that's something to stay curious about. And fatigue and depression together can be ir- a sign of iron deficiency. They can also be a sign of a thyroid condition. Saying that for you and for everyone else who's listening. In terms of the estrogen dose the c- the again, Margaret was talking about this a few minutes ago. There is a chart on the Canadian Menopause Society that shows the different brands of the estrogen patch and what doses they are available in. So that can guide you, depending on which brand you're using, to see what your opportunity would be to increase that. And generally speaking, practitioners will increase it based on presenting symptoms. That makes it tough because I know that you mentioned benefits for brain health and for bone health. Yeah. Estrogen hormone therapy is approved for the prevention of bone loss, but it's not yet approved for the prevention of dementia. So whether or not that's a side benefit, I happen to think it is because any time we give our body back something that it used to make on its own is an opportunity for us to invest in all our health sym- systems. However we know that we can only get it prescribed if, for the intention of prevention of bone loss. Does that make sense? Yep. Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. No, go ahead. Sorry, just with respect to your point on the ferritin, yeah, in my particular case, and you, of course you can't know this it's just that the... By the way, I sleep really well now, so that's good. Oh, okay, good. Yeah. So pre-HRT, my energy levels were really good. I've always been somebody who's high energy. So the blueness. And, the, this feeling of fatigue and blueness is, it reminds me exactly of what I was like pre-menopause, before my period. Okay. So that's why I'm suspicious about progesterone in me. Yep. To explain that. Yeah. I understand. Yeah. And it's not the first time I've heard that. Yeah. And you're not the first person to hopefully thrive on a compounded progesterone. Okay ... but I'm not able to answer your question, how long will it take? Sure. Yeah, no, fair enough. Okay. Yeah. All right. Those are really good questions. You brought up some good things there, Cindy. So keep me posted. Oh, great. Circle back- Hope to ... and let me know how you're doing. Thank you so much, and thank you for all you do. Ah, you're welcome. Thanks for coming today. Who else do we still have here? And do you have any questions? Okay, I think we heard from Marian and Cindy and Margaret. Oh, my goodness. Jen, what did you think of today's call? It was amazing. I loved the questions that came in. Always, like every call, there's always something new to learn, so that was great. And it was interesting that Miriam mentioned the anxiety while driving. Yes. And I had that same issue as well. And also not being prescribed progesterone because I had a hysterectomy. Ah. So I had both of those things, which was like been there, done that. But with the information that you provided me and the documentation you provided me, as well as the documentation from my naturopathic doctor, I was able to have a conversation with my doctor about the benefits of progesterone even though I don't have a uterus. So I was able to get my prescription for that, so it was amazing. And for the driving anxiety, I find, like you were saying, Shirley, that- When I'm driving, the anxiety is not as bad. Good to know. But if I'm a passenger, the anxiety is, goes way up. I find it's been better in the last couple of months. Last year it was over the top. I feel sorry for my husband at the time. I was always pressing the imaginary brake pedal- Yes ... on my side. Yes ... so I just tried to I got some tips from my therapist to remind myself that my husband he has many years of driving experience, and remind myself that I'm safe and I'm okay. And then also I did the vagus nerve exercise, like either humming or something, which kinda- Oh ... helped to calm it down. So those things helped and I'm much, much better. I find it could be really bad if I have coffee and then get in the car right away. It seems to be the anxiety- Oh, wow is higher. But- It's interesting that you noticed that. Wow. Definitely. Definitely. But it's much better now. I love your insights, Jen. That's, I think kinda talking about this lived experience, it doesn't really come up that often, but I bet it's common and maybe even universal. And I always say the rear view mirror is such an amazing teacher for me. You know what is coming up for me right now is when I was 17 maybe, 16, 17, I remember my boyfriend's mother telling me that she no longer enjoyed driving and would I drive her, is it, to London, Ontario at the time. We lived three hours away from there. But I was like, "Oh yeah, I'll drive, no problem." Whatever. And she was explaining how she just did not enjoy being behind the wheel anymore. Now fast-forward to me in midlife and I was like, the only place I wanna be in a car is behind the wheel. Exactly. So she must have been going through the anxiety- Yeah ... with driving and everything. Yeah. But I didn't know. And then the other thing that happened for me is that I never had airplane anxiety until midlife. Oh, yes. I think I always had airplane anxiety, but it's just heightened. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting conversation. Very interesting conversation. Can we start talking about it? Thank you so much for bringing it up. I love this. Marion, any closing words? I just wanted to add to that too, because I started to have panic attacks a few years before my hysterectomy. So when I was in full m- menopause, or per- perimenopause I should say, because I was quite late. Yeah. I had my hysterectomy at 56. Yeah. And my therapist immediately went to anti-anxiety antidepressants. And in retrospect, I wish that I would have had the blood work done to look at my estrogen levels, because when I did get them, they were very low. And so I think I, I think that's sometimes a gap in knowledge of therapists as well, and that they don't even think of that. They just look at the anxiety for what it is. Yeah. And maybe my question is it appropriate to suggest that? If we are seeing a mental health provider and we're talking about solutions, things like meditation or exercise as alternatives to a prescription, to ask, to say "Can we look at my blood work maybe?" And I'm not sure if I explained myself properly, but- Absolutely, it's appropriate, and it's a good explanation. I actually work with some counselors from Bria Health. So Bria Health is an organization they're based in Toronto but they do training of other counselors and therapists on menopause. So it's another great example, I think, of how health professionals are investing in this topic. We started off the conversation today talking about workplace education around menopause, but now we're seeing more allied health professionals getting as informed as possible as they can. And really, if I was to draw a picture right now on a whiteboard of this conversation it's a good reminder that we are the center of the circle. The woman, the patient, the individual is the center, and then you get to draw the circles around that. So that might be your family your family physician, let's say, in the next circle. But if you're working with a a counselor, you're working with a pelvic floor physiotherapist, you're working with a registered dietician, you can see that those aren't solid lines that you're drawing. They're dotted lines, and you can cross over the therapies from healthcare provider to healthcare provider. And I like that visual for myself better than thinking about everything that I go to do in my healthcare as a silo, right? My doctor says this, and my therapist says this, and I don't wanna do this one thing 'cause I don't want to offend the other practitioner 'cause, oh, they seem really nice. And, and we end up getting wrapped up in all these different messages. And if we can think of it as more of solutions that flow back and forth across those modalities, I hope that helps. And so long way to answer your suggestion, Marion, but the reality is, yes, progesterone should be talked about in the therapist's office, and therapy should be talked about in our family physician or our primary care provider's office. Thank you So now I wanted to also add that palpitations and anxiety attacks can also be, like, part of low iron, like low ferritin levels as well. Yes. Yes. So that's exactly what I had. I had the anxiety attacks, and palpitations, and all that, and I was prescribed an SSRI because one of the side effects was, like calming the palpitations. But that wasn't really the case. Like- But it didn't address your iron ... it was like I was... Exactly. And it was like, now that I'm learning from you, when I started following you, I was learning that it was like, the progesterone that was, like, declining as well, and that's what I actually needed, and my iron levels to be checked, instead of getting that antidepressant to help with the palpitations. I'm so glad that you brought that up, and I know we're gonna wrap up in a minute or two, but both Jen and Marian, you have no idea how many times I have met an individual who has had a hysterectomy but never was offered or informed about the fact that they were iron deficient. Because the reason they got that hysterectomy was because of heavy bleeding, and heavy bleeding led them to being iron deficient. So they got rid of the heavy bleeding by removing the uterus, but they never got rid of the iron deficiency that continued to exist. I don't know how to draw a diagram for that one. But we just have to keep on talking and keep on sharing that. It's so important. I see you. I hear all the questions and the comments and the lived experience that's shared in the Menopause Chix community. Ah, I can't believe we're at the top of the hour already. That went by so fast. Thank you so much for joining us today. So grateful for you to be brave enough and vulnerable enough to share your story so that you can hopefully get answers for where you need to travel next. And I've got travel on the brain today because of my YVR experience. Where you need to travel next. And y- anyone listening right now is likely hearing your story and feeling inspired that they can put their own name at the top of the list, too, and take care of their health. So I thank you so much for all your time and your contributions today. See you next week. 📍 Thank you, Shirley. Extro Wow. Thank you. And that's it for this week's Menopause Chicks Podcast. A huge thank you to my guest co-host, Jen, for joining me, and to everyone who showed up live, and especially to those of you who trusted us with your questions today. Because when you share your question, you're not only prioritizing your own health, you're helping someone else who has been wondering the exact same thing. And now, I want your questions for future episodes. What are you curious about? What have you been googling at 2:00 AM? What did you forget to ask at your last health appointment? And what have you been told that doesn't quite yet make sense? Or what's happening in your body right now that has you wondering, what does this mean for me? Curiosity is where clarity begins. So please go to menopausechicks.com/podcast. You can send me your question privately, leave me a voice note, submit a video question, or find out how to join us live on the next episode of the Menopause Chicks Podcast. And when you submit your question, give me a little context. Tell me your age, the date of your last period, what you're currently doing or have tried, and then ask your question. Again: menopausechicks.com/podcast. If today's conversation gave you insight or an aha moment, please follow the Menopause Chicks Podcast wherever you love to listen to your favorite podcasts, and share this episode with someone you love, because quality information deserves to travel, and your question might be her question, too. I'm Shirley Weir. Thank you for listening. Stay curious and keep your questions coming, because you deserve quality information, you deserve quality healthcare, and you deserve to feel amazing. Disclaimer 📍 The Menopause Chicks Podcast is for education and information only, and is not a substitute for personalized medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Everybody and every health history is different. Use what you learn here to help you ask informed questions, understand your options, and have conversations with your own healthcare professionals about what is right for you 📍 📍